No, Bart police needs to cite fare evaders like Muni does at $75 a pop. I want to know whether Bart's police force does or does not consider fare evasion a crime. I pay and all I see are the Muni people issuing tickets, but Bart's finest just walking up and down the stations in the city. If they can't be bothered with issuing citations, then Bart should reduce the force and hire people like the Muni fare inspectors. It would probably save them a lot of money. Just go online on either the CC times or sfgate websites and see how much Bart officers get paid and how much in overtime, but nobody talks about that. I've asked some agents I know why that is, but the answer is the same, that it's the status quo, for years. It's disgusting to me. I'm sure they write reports, etc.., but, as a rider, this is what I see. If I'm wrong, someone, especially a Bart cop who works downtown SF, correct me and I will gladly stand corrected.
Submitted by thesilentj on Wed, 09/16/2009 - 7:20pm.
No, Bart police needs to cite fare evaders like Muni does at $75 a pop.
(BART pops them at $200-300 ish)
I want to know whether Bart's police force does or does not consider fare evasion a crime.
(It IS a crime,infraction...BART pd doesn't have to agree it is a law...it just IS)
I pay and all I see are the Muni people issuing tickets, but Bart's finest just walking up and down the stations in the city.
(In the 5 Min your in the station this is probably true, there are usually 2-3 officers for 3-5 stations per officer,downtown s.f there are 2-3 sets of gates, and multi exits to each station...the odds of an officer being present when an evader "does his/her thing" is ...not good)
If they can't be bothered with issuing citations,
(They do when they see an evader OR the evader stays long enough for them to cite them...,"I fare evaded but I will stick around to get a $200-300 ticket!!" is NOT something you hear)
then Bart should reduce the force and hire people like the Muni fare inspectors.
(S.F decriminalized the fare evasion so "civilians" can cite ...but I am not sure what IF ANYTHING the fare people can do if you tell them to go pound salt and keep walking...not sure if that is the EXACT detail but...from what I understand they rely on peoples innate sense of listening to a person in uniform and doing what they say but have no real juice to do anything if you keep going)
It would probably save them a lot of money.
(Debatable without firm facts on evasion #'s and what BART is really spending over all to deal with the issue)
Just go online on either the CC times or sfgate websites and see how much Bart officers get paid and how much in overtime
(Overtime has nothing to do with evasion, base pay is average for the bay area and California.)
, but nobody talks about that.
(Umm, they do..a lot...and again, what they are paid has NOTHING to do with evasion...or how you perceive exactly what the job of Police officer entails)
I've asked some agents I know why that is
(The same agents who let evaders walk through gates without a fart to say anything?The same ones who have their heads down in a newspaper or such...holed up in their booths all shift ...doing ...less than average? Not dissing the agents but...its the pot calling the kettle black), but the answer is the same, that it's the status quo, for years.
(Yep, an officer is not super man and can't be everywhere at once stopping all crimes, People speed,run red lights,rob banks murder,rape and take the tags off mattresses as well but the officers don't catch every one of those either...busting your ass rolling code 3 to stop a fare evader ...I don't think it is a wise or safe move )
It's disgusting to me.
(Can't argue there...the fact that people can't be civil and do break rules sucks)
I'm sure they write reports, etc.., but, as a rider, this is what I see.
(Again, for the whopping 5 min you are in the station I would agree)
If I'm wrong, someone, especially a Bart cop who works downtown SF, correct me and I will gladly stand corrected.
(Things you say make total sense but ...the perspective is limited and ...skewed , standing corrected...no , just stand informed)
Before 9-11 there was a unit in BART PD that dealt with fare evasion and other "small " BART "crimes,infractions ALMOST exclusively. Post 9-11 the unit was disbanded and officers were put on "beats" as it was seen as a better use of time and man power.
Muni is different because they can check people for transfers or passes anywhere in the system. For the BART PD to catch people skipping fares they would have to stand around and watch the gates all day. While it would be nice if they had the manpower to do this, I think realistically the public is better served if they are at least pretending to police the system instead of concentrating on standing around all day like bouncers. How much of a fare increase would people be willing to pay to hire cops to stand around and watch every gate?
Submitted by thesilentj on Thu, 09/17/2009 - 9:22am.
OR BART pd could be like the train systems, walk EVERY train and do the old west , "Tickets please!" thing!!
That would be kinda cool ..then they could boot evaders off the moving train...lol ah, if only.
Submitted by BartHater on Thu, 09/17/2009 - 9:32am.
This is not easy at BART, mainly because BART tickets do not print the "Entry time/Station" on the tickets. The PD would need ticket readers to check the encoding.
Cameras should be installed strategically to catch the fare evaders at the station exit points. For starters they should start targeting the stations that has the most rampant fare evaders.
Submitted by bart_blows on Mon, 09/21/2009 - 9:32am.
It doesn't have to be everything or nothing, there are a lot of ways they could police the system with very little manpower needed.. It's not like they have to be at every entrance all the time. If they picked high-violation stations and had BART PD guarding the trouble spots for an hour or two during peak violation times they could scare people into doing it less.
They could also set up sting operations with the BART PD hiding around a corner and watching the trouble spots with cameras, and then popping out and nabbing violators when they see them hop the fences or whatever.
I appreciate the reply, but it is not just 5 minutes that I spend in the station and I thank you for your candor regarding the unit being disbanded. That actually makes more sense now and as to your comment about agents having their heads down in a newspaper, holed up in their booth, doing less than average..., you must be in a station that is slow and I showed your comments to my regular agents at my commute station and they said that was typical of a BPS response and that even if they wanted to, they cannot enforce payment anyway or cite fare evaders and that if they try to enforce payment, they do not get support from the cops or management. If this is indeed the case, then the public needs to be aware that all they have to do to enter Bart is the minimum fare and say they lost their ticket when they exit, assuming, that is, if they want to give the impression that they are paying full fare, or can't enter without being detected or stopped, in a variety of ways, without a ticket. Yes, I agree that Muni is different, and at least right now, there are sting operations on certain bus lines and even in the Metro stations, but the point is must be clear: Bart does not care whether a rider pays or not and Bart PD will not enforce payment. Just be honest with the public.
Submitted by thesilentj on Fri, 09/18/2009 - 3:30pm.
For the record I'm NOT BPD. I have a decent working knowledge (DECENT not profound) of the PD, BART and the comings and goings of ALL the stations, for the most part in the mornings.
I find it interesting you showed it to the Agents though...kind of ,"Teacher Teacher look what Johnny Said!!" of you BUT ...what ever, I have a feeling you are LOOKING to stir stuff up.
I said what I said about CERTAIN agents based on personal experience, my job takes me to MANY stations in BART daily and I think I can safely state MY OPINION with a certain amount of information and FACT to back it up. You can NOT tell me you have spent ANY great amount of time in any BUSY station without seeing 2-3 agents in one booth..while another is unmanned(free for all side) , OR an agent BLISSFULLY head down in a book,paper or head stuck to the phone while the Entire Russian army parades through the side gates ...evading?
If you Say no you haven't seen this(ok, Russian army is a stretch but you get the point)...then I question the amount of time You really spend in a station BEYOND 5 min.As I seem to see this pretty much DAILY .
I am WELL aware what agents can and can NOT do to fare evasion, I simply stated it was a case of the pot calling the kettle black "BPD doesn't do shit" ok but the head down , staring into the void that is downtown S.F. not lifting a finger is not really helping the situation either. , BPD isn't using telepathic powers (yet) so..if they are NOT in the station at the time...they are hard pressed to catch the evaders, again...they aren't going to roll lights and sirens risking lives for an $8 bart fare...or less.
Now, there ARE agents that are the exception , they will go over the loud speakers and announce to the entire station that ,"Mr Douche in the Blue shirt , khaki pants with the blue hat on is evading fare , please return to the machines and pay your way" , It works fairly well.
As I said, BPD cites the ones they catch or the ones that stick around (usually the honest people who lost a ticket)
If you WISH to ASSUME that BART PD does not care please...do fare evade ...then you will get popped eventually ($275 ticket = to be A LOT of BART blue tickets) and ...well then you can test your theory and let EVERYONE here know how you are doing.
I would imagine MOST if not ALL the officers that DID come here have long lost the taste for the "NEED" to JUSTIFY the job they do in BART.
Again, I am NOT BART PD , I DO spend a GOOD amount of time in A LOT of stations daily doing my job , FARE evasion is a TEAM effort and the blame can NOT be heaped upon ONE outfits shoulders , AGENTS BPD and Management need to work TOGETHER ...and the PUBLIC needs to as well.
This situation is more or less like Your house is on fire neither You nor ANY of Your neighbors call the fire department to come put it out ...THEN blame the Fire Department that your house is gone.
Have 1.You EVER called in a fare evader? 2.Have You EVER called in an evader AND stuck around for the officer to get there so you could give a description? Have You EVER done all of the previous 2 ? and then made a citizens arrest on the evader, gone to court on it and seen it through ( or however citizens arrests work)?
Takes 2 to have a crime happen 1 to do it , 1 to let it happen.
If you have done NONE of these , I would offer up this suggestion , YOU Sir Or Ma'am are not doing YOUR JOB as a LAW ABIDING citizen!
And BEFORE You ask, YES I have called in SEVERAL fare evaders . I even got the privilege of watching one be carted off because He had 2 FELONY warrants for His arrest ...and the officer asked,"You know if you had paid Your BART fare , you wouldn't be going to jail right now" I about FELL over laughing .$2-8 bucks would have meant the difference between coffee at Starbucks at a casual pace...and being cavity searched and deloused.
As far as HONEST with the public? This made me laugh out loud . How much more honest can you be? Fare evade , GET CAUGHT , get a ticket for $275.
Where are you MISSING the point there?
OR Do you SERIOUSLY believe ...EVEN in the SMALLEST of ways BART SECRETLY DOES NOT CARE if you pay?
To go further , DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK THEY WOULD SAY IT IN PUBLIC IF (AND I STRESS IF IF IF!!) THEY DID ?
Submitted by stoconnell on Sat, 09/19/2009 - 10:41am.
Heh, yeah, money they claim they don't have. It would be pretty funny having them kitted out with portable RFID readers. It would actually be more of a crime deterrent than boxes on the car ceiling with blinking lights ;) My thinking on the MUNI front is that they do actually seem to enforce fare evading.
They regularly check at exits from underground stations and occasionally there will be a fare checker actually on a train. If you only ride the bus then you will probably never see a fare inspector though.
WHY NO BODY POST? IS RAGE ALL
WHY NO BODY POST?
IS RAGE ALL GONE?
IS BART PERFECT NOW?
BART is practically perfect
BART is practically perfect in every way.
No, Bart police needs to cite
No, Bart police needs to cite fare evaders like Muni does at $75 a pop. I want to know whether Bart's police force does or does not consider fare evasion a crime. I pay and all I see are the Muni people issuing tickets, but Bart's finest just walking up and down the stations in the city. If they can't be bothered with issuing citations, then Bart should reduce the force and hire people like the Muni fare inspectors. It would probably save them a lot of money. Just go online on either the CC times or sfgate websites and see how much Bart officers get paid and how much in overtime, but nobody talks about that. I've asked some agents I know why that is, but the answer is the same, that it's the status quo, for years. It's disgusting to me. I'm sure they write reports, etc.., but, as a rider, this is what I see. If I'm wrong, someone, especially a Bart cop who works downtown SF, correct me and I will gladly stand corrected.
No, Bart police needs to cite
No, Bart police needs to cite fare evaders like Muni does at $75 a pop.
(BART pops them at $200-300 ish)
I want to know whether Bart's police force does or does not consider fare evasion a crime.
(It IS a crime,infraction...BART pd doesn't have to agree it is a law...it just IS)
I pay and all I see are the Muni people issuing tickets, but Bart's finest just walking up and down the stations in the city.
(In the 5 Min your in the station this is probably true, there are usually 2-3 officers for 3-5 stations per officer,downtown s.f there are 2-3 sets of gates, and multi exits to each station...the odds of an officer being present when an evader "does his/her thing" is ...not good)
If they can't be bothered with issuing citations,
(They do when they see an evader OR the evader stays long enough for them to cite them...,"I fare evaded but I will stick around to get a $200-300 ticket!!" is NOT something you hear)
then Bart should reduce the force and hire people like the Muni fare inspectors.
(S.F decriminalized the fare evasion so "civilians" can cite ...but I am not sure what IF ANYTHING the fare people can do if you tell them to go pound salt and keep walking...not sure if that is the EXACT detail but...from what I understand they rely on peoples innate sense of listening to a person in uniform and doing what they say but have no real juice to do anything if you keep going)
It would probably save them a lot of money.
(Debatable without firm facts on evasion #'s and what BART is really spending over all to deal with the issue)
Just go online on either the CC times or sfgate websites and see how much Bart officers get paid and how much in overtime
(Overtime has nothing to do with evasion, base pay is average for the bay area and California.)
, but nobody talks about that.
(Umm, they do..a lot...and again, what they are paid has NOTHING to do with evasion...or how you perceive exactly what the job of Police officer entails)
I've asked some agents I know why that is
(The same agents who let evaders walk through gates without a fart to say anything?The same ones who have their heads down in a newspaper or such...holed up in their booths all shift ...doing ...less than average? Not dissing the agents but...its the pot calling the kettle black), but the answer is the same, that it's the status quo, for years.
(Yep, an officer is not super man and can't be everywhere at once stopping all crimes, People speed,run red lights,rob banks murder,rape and take the tags off mattresses as well but the officers don't catch every one of those either...busting your ass rolling code 3 to stop a fare evader ...I don't think it is a wise or safe move )
It's disgusting to me.
(Can't argue there...the fact that people can't be civil and do break rules sucks)
I'm sure they write reports, etc.., but, as a rider, this is what I see.
(Again, for the whopping 5 min you are in the station I would agree)
If I'm wrong, someone, especially a Bart cop who works downtown SF, correct me and I will gladly stand corrected.
(Things you say make total sense but ...the perspective is limited and ...skewed , standing corrected...no , just stand informed)
Before 9-11 there was a unit in BART PD that dealt with fare evasion and other "small " BART "crimes,infractions ALMOST exclusively. Post 9-11 the unit was disbanded and officers were put on "beats" as it was seen as a better use of time and man power.
Muni is different because
Muni is different because they can check people for transfers or passes anywhere in the system. For the BART PD to catch people skipping fares they would have to stand around and watch the gates all day. While it would be nice if they had the manpower to do this, I think realistically the public is better served if they are at least pretending to police the system instead of concentrating on standing around all day like bouncers. How much of a fare increase would people be willing to pay to hire cops to stand around and watch every gate?
OR BART pd could be like the
OR BART pd could be like the train systems, walk EVERY train and do the old west , "Tickets please!" thing!!
That would be kinda cool ..then they could boot evaders off the moving train...lol ah, if only.
This is not easy at BART,
This is not easy at BART, mainly because BART tickets do not print the "Entry time/Station" on the tickets. The PD would need ticket readers to check the encoding.
Cameras should be installed strategically to catch the fare evaders at the station exit points. For starters they should start targeting the stations that has the most rampant fare evaders.
They would have to wear
They would have to wear old-timey conductor's hats while doing this.
It doesn't have to be
It doesn't have to be everything or nothing, there are a lot of ways they could police the system with very little manpower needed.. It's not like they have to be at every entrance all the time. If they picked high-violation stations and had BART PD guarding the trouble spots for an hour or two during peak violation times they could scare people into doing it less.
They could also set up sting operations with the BART PD hiding around a corner and watching the trouble spots with cameras, and then popping out and nabbing violators when they see them hop the fences or whatever.
I appreciate the reply, but
I appreciate the reply, but it is not just 5 minutes that I spend in the station and I thank you for your candor regarding the unit being disbanded. That actually makes more sense now and as to your comment about agents having their heads down in a newspaper, holed up in their booth, doing less than average..., you must be in a station that is slow and I showed your comments to my regular agents at my commute station and they said that was typical of a BPS response and that even if they wanted to, they cannot enforce payment anyway or cite fare evaders and that if they try to enforce payment, they do not get support from the cops or management. If this is indeed the case, then the public needs to be aware that all they have to do to enter Bart is the minimum fare and say they lost their ticket when they exit, assuming, that is, if they want to give the impression that they are paying full fare, or can't enter without being detected or stopped, in a variety of ways, without a ticket. Yes, I agree that Muni is different, and at least right now, there are sting operations on certain bus lines and even in the Metro stations, but the point is must be clear: Bart does not care whether a rider pays or not and Bart PD will not enforce payment. Just be honest with the public.
For the record I'm NOT BPD. I
For the record I'm NOT BPD. I have a decent working knowledge (DECENT not profound) of the PD, BART and the comings and goings of ALL the stations, for the most part in the mornings.
I find it interesting you showed it to the Agents though...kind of ,"Teacher Teacher look what Johnny Said!!" of you BUT ...what ever, I have a feeling you are LOOKING to stir stuff up.
I said what I said about CERTAIN agents based on personal experience, my job takes me to MANY stations in BART daily and I think I can safely state MY OPINION with a certain amount of information and FACT to back it up. You can NOT tell me you have spent ANY great amount of time in any BUSY station without seeing 2-3 agents in one booth..while another is unmanned(free for all side) , OR an agent BLISSFULLY head down in a book,paper or head stuck to the phone while the Entire Russian army parades through the side gates ...evading?
If you Say no you haven't seen this(ok, Russian army is a stretch but you get the point)...then I question the amount of time You really spend in a station BEYOND 5 min.As I seem to see this pretty much DAILY .
I am WELL aware what agents can and can NOT do to fare evasion, I simply stated it was a case of the pot calling the kettle black "BPD doesn't do shit" ok but the head down , staring into the void that is downtown S.F. not lifting a finger is not really helping the situation either. , BPD isn't using telepathic powers (yet) so..if they are NOT in the station at the time...they are hard pressed to catch the evaders, again...they aren't going to roll lights and sirens risking lives for an $8 bart fare...or less.
Now, there ARE agents that are the exception , they will go over the loud speakers and announce to the entire station that ,"Mr Douche in the Blue shirt , khaki pants with the blue hat on is evading fare , please return to the machines and pay your way" , It works fairly well.
As I said, BPD cites the ones they catch or the ones that stick around (usually the honest people who lost a ticket)
If you WISH to ASSUME that BART PD does not care please...do fare evade ...then you will get popped eventually ($275 ticket = to be A LOT of BART blue tickets) and ...well then you can test your theory and let EVERYONE here know how you are doing.
I would imagine MOST if not ALL the officers that DID come here have long lost the taste for the "NEED" to JUSTIFY the job they do in BART.
Again, I am NOT BART PD , I DO spend a GOOD amount of time in A LOT of stations daily doing my job , FARE evasion is a TEAM effort and the blame can NOT be heaped upon ONE outfits shoulders , AGENTS BPD and Management need to work TOGETHER ...and the PUBLIC needs to as well.
This situation is more or less like Your house is on fire neither You nor ANY of Your neighbors call the fire department to come put it out ...THEN blame the Fire Department that your house is gone.
Have 1.You EVER called in a fare evader? 2.Have You EVER called in an evader AND stuck around for the officer to get there so you could give a description? Have You EVER done all of the previous 2 ? and then made a citizens arrest on the evader, gone to court on it and seen it through ( or however citizens arrests work)?
Takes 2 to have a crime happen 1 to do it , 1 to let it happen.
If you have done NONE of these , I would offer up this suggestion , YOU Sir Or Ma'am are not doing YOUR JOB as a LAW ABIDING citizen!
And BEFORE You ask, YES I have called in SEVERAL fare evaders . I even got the privilege of watching one be carted off because He had 2 FELONY warrants for His arrest ...and the officer asked,"You know if you had paid Your BART fare , you wouldn't be going to jail right now" I about FELL over laughing .$2-8 bucks would have meant the difference between coffee at Starbucks at a casual pace...and being cavity searched and deloused.
As far as HONEST with the public? This made me laugh out loud . How much more honest can you be? Fare evade , GET CAUGHT , get a ticket for $275.
Where are you MISSING the point there?
OR Do you SERIOUSLY believe ...EVEN in the SMALLEST of ways BART SECRETLY DOES NOT CARE if you pay?
To go further , DO YOU SERIOUSLY THINK THEY WOULD SAY IT IN PUBLIC IF (AND I STRESS IF IF IF!!) THEY DID ?
The Internet ate my post :-(
The Internet ate my post :-( It was a good post too.
Doh!
Doh!
How would you address those
How would you address those of using EZRider and/or TransLink cards? How do MUNI cops deal with that? It's not like they give you paper receipts?
Blast. This was meant to be a reply to the old timey conductor idea.
Well since it would cost MASS
Well since it would cost MASS amounts of $$$ to do the Old Time conductor thing...lets add more $$ to it.
Portable "translink" readers that indicate time , amount and entry point. Put it next to the conductors coin change belt thingy.
Heh, yeah, money they claim
Heh, yeah, money they claim they don't have. It would be pretty funny having them kitted out with portable RFID readers. It would actually be more of a crime deterrent than boxes on the car ceiling with blinking lights ;) My thinking on the MUNI front is that they do actually seem to enforce fare evading.
They regularly check at exits
They regularly check at exits from underground stations and occasionally there will be a fare checker actually on a train. If you only ride the bus then you will probably never see a fare inspector though.
The Agents already have
The Agents already have handheld rfid card readers. Take your translink to an agent and watch them pop it out of the charger.