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You think BART is bad now

it was worst 10 years ago. I dug up an article written by the Chronicle in 2001 chronicling the frequent equipment problems most of the stations in the system had to deal with because the fare gates, escalators, ticket machines, add-fare machines had been there since the system opened. Sometimes it got so bad that station agents would let everyone in for free when more than half of the ticket machines at a station were broken or lines got too long. And some equipment was literally held together by duct tape, paper clips, and rubber bands. Some of the problems still exist today, but they were worst 10 years ago.

bartarded's picture

To be fair public

To be fair public transportation systems have these problems everywhere. I have spent a lot of time on the subways in NY and Boston and they have the same problems.

But the difference is that in NY and Boston the trains go to a hell of a lot more places, the prices are much lower, and the trains run much later.

I wonder if all of the Bay

I wonder if all of the Bay Area agencies were to be combined into one large entity if it would run a lot better.

TreoBART's picture

Short answer, no. In Philly

Short answer, no. In Philly the commuter rail, bus lines, subway, and light rail were all combines under one agency. If whiners around here think the BART union is too powerful, try having the entire regional transit system in an old school East Coast union. Buy some nice walking shoes.

The bureacracy needed to run an agency that size is enormous, corruption and waste is ridiculous, and all the usual complaints of cuts in service or equipment upgrades for one service over another are magnified. I would not want one giant transit company monopolizing the bay area. At least if all else fails there's ac transit, caltrain, and the ferry going to the city and Muni once you get there.

bartarded's picture

I don't know about Philly but

I don't know about Philly but in Boston the train operators actually do work instead of just pushing a button.
Most of their trains are still fully manual and not as heavily automated as BART.

Why do people think that all

Why do people think that all BART train operators do is push buttons?

Because passengers rarely see

Because passengers rarely see situations where the train operator has to give instructions to passengers fleeing a disabled train or where the train operator has to drive the train on manual because the computers are down. 95% of the time you'll only see a BART operator stick his head out the window and press the button to close the doors.

bartarded's picture

Probably because that is all

Probably because that is all they do 95% of the time since 95% of the time everything runs totally automated and the only times TOs do anything other than push a button is rare emergency situations.

Like the Situation that

Like the Situation that happened at Embarcadero Station earlier.

TreoBART's picture

I'm never going to get to go

I'm never going to get to go home today, if the delays this afternoon continue :-(

Well everything is moving

Well everything is moving now.

bartarded's picture

Freak accident, which will

Freak accident, which will effect, what, maybe a half-dozen TOs before it's fixed?
How often do you think that sort of thing actually happens??

When an emergency like this

When an emergency like this happens ALL operators are effected, because trains are being turned around in odd places so now they have to deal with passengers getting confused, and thankfully these types of incidents do not happen often unlike other railroads.

bartarded's picture

Having to talk into a

Having to talk into a microphone to alert passengers to temporary changes isn't much more difficult than pushing a button.

Either way it's easier than most janitorial work.

Allow me to cut and paste my

Allow me to cut and paste my own post from last summer's labor negotiations after I got tired of reading about "all the train operators do is push a button":

Caution, wall of technical jargon text ahead. I see no other way to explain it other than with details. You want to do all the following with robots, good luck.

Most people only see what happens when everything is working properly. Allow me to provide some insight into what the train operator deals with when things go awry. I’m only going to explain some of the terminology and acronyms since for those who think it is all so simple, let them figure it out for themselves.

The first three scenarios are show stoppers requiring the train operator to have a detailed knowledge of the problem and the troubleshooting and corrective measures required to recover from them.

BOIP (Brake On In Propulsion)

If the friction brakes fail in the applied state on any car in the train while the ATO is requesting acceleration or propulsion, this is called BOIP. It causes an audible alerter to sound in the cab (BEEP, BEEP, BEEP) for ten seconds along with lit “friction brake” and “brake on” annunciators on the attendant’s console after which the train is forced to stop. This is to prevent dragging of a car with stuck brakes to the point of overheating and smoking or possibly causing a fire.

Once this occurs, it can sometimes be cleared by cycling the auxiliaries off and then back on. This is why the train sometimes appears to stop and go completely dead for a short while with the lights off and no air conditioning blowers.

If it can’t be cleared, the operator may be required to walk through the train to find the affected car and cut out the brakes. The affected car will have a lit interior trouble light and a “friction brake failsafe” lit on the CCP in a C car or “friction brake” highlighted on the FIMS panel of an A2/B2 car. There are various cutout switches and dump handles that must be operated to isolated the brakes on the affected car.

Nobody, from central controllers, to the vehicle trouble desk, to the mainline techs, to the train operators, relishes having to deal with a BOIP.

Door Open

If even a single side door leaf opens on a train that is in motion, the train is forced to stop. If a door fails to close while the train is stationary, the train won’t move. You can’t have trains moving with the doors open for obvious reasons. Often times a sensing circuitry failure indicates the door is open when it is actually physically closed. The operator will see a “door open” annunciator on the attendant’s console in the cab. Again, the operator may be required to walk through the train looking for a lit trouble light and listening for clicking relays in order to locate and cut out the offending doors.

A stuck parking brake somewhere in the train causes symptoms of both of the aforementioned problems.

ATO SET

The automatic train control uses redundant microprocessors to provide safe automatic operation. When the two processors disagree, a safety error termination occurs which stops the train. If this can’t be cleared with a key off recycle, the operator is required to open the ATO cabinet and change the configuration of leader/backup to bring the spare ATP online to replace the failed unit. The status of the ATPs is displayed on the LCD on the attendant’s console.

Steady “auxiliaries” annunciator

A steady “auxiliaries” annunciator on the attendant’s console can be caused by two different problems that have different symptoms. The first problem is caused by the failure of the pneumatic system on a car somewhere in the train. Since the pneumatic system provides compressed air for the suspension system, failure can result in a car that is lower than the platform or leans to one side. This becomes a trip hazard for the riders as they enter or leave the affected car.

When a pneumatic system (air supply) failure is suspected, the operator may be required to locate the affected car and then cycle fluorescent light circuit breaker #2 which also feeds the pneumatic system’s control circuits in order to attempt to recover from what is sometimes a temporary glitch.

The other problem which causes an “auxiliaries” annunciator is the loss of the inverter on a car somewhere in the train that supplies power to the car’s control and auxiliary systems. This failure has secondary annunciators such as “propulsion” and/or “dynamic brake” and “friction brake” which distinguish it from the pneumatic system problem. If this condition is allowed to persist, eventually the affected cars goes dead with no lights, air conditioning or the ability to properly report its various subsystems’ status to the lead car. This is one cause of the dreaded “all red board” on the attendant’s console of the lead car and it also stops the train and won’t let it move without the use of the “door open” and “brake on” bypass switches in the cab.

It is the operator’s responsibility to properly monitor, report to central control and the vehicle trouble desk (they dispatch the mainline techs to a train to deal with these items and to assist the operator), troubleshoot and provide corrective action for these malfunctions.

The operators are trained in the function and troubleshooting of the various car subsystems in order to be able to perform these tasks, which amount to way more required knowledge, skills and abilities than just pushing buttons and making announcements.

Train operators also need to be thick skinned individuals in order to deal with members of the general public who think they have some right to verbally berate (or worse) the first employee they see when something fails and the train is stopped in the middle of the transbay tube.

They must also be able to remain calm and rational in the face of some emergency that may require evacuating the train.

It is not a job for everybody and you certainly aren’t going to fire them (they are legally allowed to strike without being fired) and replace them all with people who will gladly do the job for a lot less. Ain’t gonna happen. There’s way more to the job than what you see when you ride the train and everything is working properly.

I spent a lot of years working with the trains and operators to be able to know all of this. I never had to deal with station equipment or work regularly with station agents. But you know what? That means there are all kinds of things that go on in their jobs that I don’t know about. One thing I do know is that they have to deal with all those self centered jerkoffs out there who think that as soon as they are paying for something, it means everybody that works there is their doormat or slave when anything goes wrong. Not everybody is cut out to put up with that kind of abuse on a daily basis either. For a lot of people, after a couple days on the job as a BART station agent they would either quit or they’d be at Santa Rita locked up on assault charges.

bartarded's picture

WOAH they have to

WOAH they have to troubleshoot like 10 things that any high school kid could manage?
Dang I guess it really is way more than pushing a button.

Submitted by bartarded on

Submitted by bartarded on Wed, 06/30/2010 - 6:45pm.
Having to talk into a microphone to alert passengers to temporary changes isn't much more difficult than pushing a button.

Either way it's easier than most janitorial work.

Submitted by bartarded on Wed, 06/30/2010 - 6:43pm.
WOAH they have to troubleshoot like 10 things that any high school kid could manage?
Dang I guess it really is way more than pushing a button.

Bartarded, you should ask your mom to let you out of the basement to experience the real world on occasion, child. But if you're an adult, then it's troll.

Thank you.

Thank you.

bartarded's picture

Resorting to cheap personal

Resorting to cheap personal attacks means you have no actual rebuttal.

BART is so automated that "driving" one of the trains is probably easier than being a Station Agent, and even that is easier than what most janitors have to do.

Bartarded's posts are an

Bartarded's posts are an attack on the integrity of the train operators who were my co workers for many years.

They aren't endearing themselves to station agents or anyone who does janitorial work by calling their jobs easy either.

What does bartarded do for a living that is so special that they feel entitled to minimalize the work of janitors, train operators and station agents on a public forum?

Bring it or STFU.

bartarded's picture

I didn't say janitorial work

I didn't say janitorial work was easy. Janitorial work is hard!! But it doesn't pay anywhere near as well as being a TO, which I think is wrong. Harder job should pay better.

Station agent jobs also aren't easy, mostly because of irate customers. Sure they sit there doing nothing a lot of the time, but the few times they do have to deal with people it is usually because some customer is angry about something the station agent has no control over and just wants to yell at somebody.

boopiejones's picture

hard is relative. sure

hard is relative. sure manual labor is "hard," but a vast majority of the general public could perform the tasks of a janitor. in fact, the vast majority of the general public already DOES perform those tasks in their own homes.

job pay should be based on the overall value it brings to society. clean toilets do not bring a lot of value to society. but getting 300,000 people to their jobs every day brings a lot of value.

I would like to add on to

I would like to add on to boopie's post: How much do you think a person should get for being responsible for 2000 people?

bartarded's picture

that is a good question, i

that is a good question, i don't know. pretty low honestly since they aren't really responsible for anything except when there is an emergency. maybe it should be on a pay scale where they don't make very much money on a normal day, but then when there is an emergency they make extremely high "hazard wages" or something.

bartarded's picture

sure but most of the general

sure but most of the general public could also do the things described as what a train operator does. or a station agent. or most jobs for that matter.

you could get a computer to do what is done by a train operator. if you don't believe me try riding the tram at the airport.

TreoBART's picture

Please do not feed the

Please do not feed the trolls.

isn't salary/pay generally

isn't salary/pay generally based upon level of education ??

what are the requirements to be hired for _______ position at bart.

how about where any of the riders work?

For many BART positions

For many BART positions education is done within. BART will train for positions like elevator/escalator , station agent, train operator and so on. So employment depends on graduation of BART training programs. Some positions you can't quit before a timespan or you pay them back for the training.

Also why BART takes like 1000 applications for something like Agents, but end up with like 10-15 employees due to the high dropout rate for those job positions.

training for specific job

training for specific job functions / duties is done within, yes, but some jobs require certificates, degrees, or proof of journey level before they will take a second look at ones' application. or job history.

compare/contrast that to the folks who ride the trains

bartarded's picture

depends a lot on what line

depends a lot on what line you are talking about.
people commuting into embarcadero are highly educated.
people commuting to fruitvale are not

still most likely more college graduates riding the trains than driving them.